When it comes to the origin of life, the world is divided into two camps – the creationists, and the evolutionists. You can be in one camp, or the other. You either believe that God created humankind, or Darwinian natural selection caused humankind to exist. There is no “in between” or “both also can”.
Some Christians believe that God created humankind through evolution. They call themselves Christian evolutionists… A so-called “third category”. They say they can believe in the Darwinian evolution theory, and remain unfazed in their faith as a Christian. “There is no contradiction. God made humankind through evolution.”
If an evolutionist says he is a Christian, he is either:
1. Not a Christian as he claims to be.
2. A Christian who does not fully understand the claims of Darwinism.
Christian evolutionists put themselves in an oxymoronic position.
The evolutionary process by definition is “undirected”.
If living organisms came into being by undirected, random chance, then the Creator is put out of His job.
If God did not direct the design of His creation, then He is no longer a Creator.
If He is not a Creator, then creation can exist without Him.
If creation can exist without Him, then He doesn’t need to exist.
If He doesn’t need to exist, then He is not God.
If there is no God, then who do you worship?
Hence the oxymoron. How can you direct something by random chance? How can you be a Christian if there is no God? Your position is the same as the atheist.
Are you a Christian evolutionist? Pick another side. Your category does not exist.
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18 comments:
Err...Lemmebreakthingsdown.
"The evolutionary process by definition is undirected"
Just to stimulate thoughts, the whole atheistic argument supporting Darwin's undirected evolution hinges on whether or not something, somebody, in some time, "directed" it. Either way, the question is about proving the existence of a higher determinant. The "Christian Evolutionist", thence, assumes that God directs evolution. Period.
I don't see how "either way, the question is about proving the existence of a higher determinant." It's logically either the higher determinant exists, or it doesn't.
If there indeed is a higher determinant, it must be higher from all forms of creation. The "determinant" cannot be part of what is "being determined." It has to be transcendent. Or else it doesn't make any sense.
The only thing that is transcendent over all creation (matter, space, and time) is God.
Darwin himself argued that if God is factored into his theory, then "natural selection" will be superfluous. Because it will no longer be "natural". Darwinism, in its truest sense, leaves no room for any determinant higher than pure chance.
The Christian argues that God directed the creation of the world. It's a very inconvenient stand. Because if indeed a Supreme Being directed the universe, then humans will have a higher authority to be morally obligated to.
The Christian evolutionist argues that God created the world through evolution. It's a very convenient stand. He would rather commit dei-cide (deity suicide) rather than enter the debate.
You don't decide something on a coin toss, and say that it is a directed decision. The coin toss itself is indecision.
Is it reconciliable if we use the layman's definition of evolution - 'life forms changing bit by bit over a long time'?
Using this definition, a Christian Evolutionist could say he believes that created all life, and did so step-by-step over the eons.
By saying that God was and is always in control of the evolutionary process, he avoids the charge that God started the original process but left it to its own means.
However, to this I would counter-argue that what seems to have taken place over the recent millenia is more of a DE-evolution. Life forms get smaller, weaker, shorter-lived, and have more useless body parts and diseases. Traditionally, it's called the effects of sin.
I have also heard the argument that to put one's belief in evolution - life getting better and better - one must reject the doctrine of sin that reduces the quality of life.
And if evolution will one day bring life to the pinnacle of completion, then there is no need for a divine Saviour - natural processes will accomplish perfection, making Christ's sacrificial redemption pointless.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the idea of the evolutionary process, per se. It's the accompanying/underlying naturalistic/godless philosophy that I cannot accept.
The heavy oak door of my mind is waiting for the theory of evolution (specifically, macro-evolution into new life forms) to say the password and enter. The password is proof beyond reasonable doubt. If evolution is so proven, then I will let the idea in and adapt my worldview to accomodate this as scientific fact.
But right now, and perhaps forever more... It lacks the strength and firm footing to even wobble an unlocked, plywood swinging door.
Well, I'm a Christian evolutionist, and believe in the COMPLETE soverignity of God in all things. I DO NOT believe that God set laws in motion,and then let nature take it's course.
I believe that being made in His image, we can understand something about Him. He has a personality that He desires to express. The only part of His personality that could be expressed among the Trinity was love. He could not express traits such as mercy,wrath,justice,longsuffering, and so on within the Trinity, because those attributes were not applicable. Hence His reason for creation. The Bible does not come out and directly say this, this is the conclusion that I have drawn.
Evolution is so genius, that only God could have come up with it! Part of His personality is His creative ability... How gradifing to His desire to create would it be just to call something into being?
God's plan was to create human beings to be the recipients of ALL that He is. I mean ALL,yes,even wrath and judgement!God is love, but that's not the only thing He is.
God uses "means"and the means to achieving the human being was evolution.
Now in order for God to achieve this end and still allow for a level of freedom in his creation, he providentially oversaw each step of the process, again by "means," such as the environment, so that what evolved was indeed a human being which is exactly what He had planned.
God involves His creation in everything, even it's own creation. Just as in salvation, God is the one who is doing the saving, but we are activly involved in exersizing that faith that God gives us.
Tulipgirl
It's interesting how you brought themes like the trinity, salvation, wrath, and judgment into the picture. But I fail to see how they have anything to do with evolution.
I don't see how creating something out of something is more "genius" than creating something out of nothing. Isn't it a greater act of genius to create something totally new from nothing, instead of "evolve" it from a pre-existing source?
If God oversaw each step of the evolutionary process, then evolution has fallen by definition itself. It has become a directed process. That is creationism, not evolution.
In God's complete sovereignty, why then does He "allow a level of freedom" for creation to happen by chance? It's self-contradictory to say that God is sovereign in calling things into being, but He allows random chance at the same time. Then He oversees that process of random chance? It's like the case of the coin toss again.
If God indeed is so great, why does He need a "means" to create human being? If He has to call His creation into being through a long mechanism, from a pre-cursor, through a random process, by pure chance... Then I don't see why that God is so great.
In fact, I don't see why He should be called God at all.
You have 2 levels of obstacles to clear if you want to maintain your position as a Christian evolutionist:
1, how is the theory of evolution backed up by science.
2, how does this theory help the case for the existence of a Creator.
It would be even more interesting to you if you understood it. I was explaining God's purpose in creating a human being. I was explaining the why, not the how.
First of all I NEVER said that creating something from something was MORE genius than creating something from nothing. I simply said that the process of evolution was too genius to have happened on it's own.
God directed and continues to direct evolution, just as He directs all His creation. If you would rather call that creationism, that's fine with me , I don't really care about the name.
Again, you put words into my mouth....I never said anything happened by chance. God is sovereign, and he controls His creation by providence. It has nothing to do with chance and necessity, but everything to do with providence and necessity.
Once again more words I never said... God does not NEED means but CHOOSES to use means to accomplish all of His ends. I can only guess that He does this to include His creation in His work.
God uses the preaching of the Gospel as a means to bring His elect to faith and repentence. There are many other examples of God using means involving His creation to accomplish His decreed ends.
These may be obstacles for you, but they are not for me.
1) Evolution is backed up by science. If it were not, then this theory would have died out long ago.
2) Because like I said before.. the process of evolution leading to the end result of each human being could not have just happened on it's own. Without God's providence the end result of evolution could have turned out to be anything.
1) The evidence for the theory of evolution has fallen. Without any evidence left, the theory is now just a philosophical idea. Philosophy does not need proof. Science does.
The most recent discoveries over the last two decades have been steadily debunking the theory of evolution. The current cry is, "Design!"(See the entry previous to this one, January 26). The theory of evolution fails the burden of proof in science.
2) If human beings evolved through divine intervention, only at a few points here and there, over a period of millions of years... It's not very different from pure chance, if you think about it.
Who can really tell if it's intelligent design or pure coincidence? Given enough time, pressure, temperature, and raw material, it could've gone either way. Once you've failed often enough, it's a matter of time before things come together correctly.
When intelligent design is relegated so far back into the background, you can't tell whether the end result was really by divine intervention, or if there was no intervention at all. The points of God's intervention are too insignificant to be seen, much less to prove.
Hence, the God I know is a creator. Not a modifier.
When I read your responses to my posts, it's like you haven't really read them, or maybe the only evolutionists you've debated with were atheistic, because you are debating using points geared towards attacking the atheistic veiwpoint, and not my veiwpoint. You haven't once really addressed what I have said. It seems you are just using rote aguments that are used with Atheists and maybe Deists. Which I am niether.
Actually, the evidence for evolution, and the big bang theory have not fallen. Quite the opposite; science is making new discoveries all of the time.
EVOLUTION IS DESIGN....GOD"S DESIGN.... that's what you don't seem to understand !!!!!!!
God didn't step in here or there along the way. No god in the gaps! God didn't just intervene here and there, God is involved in around and throuhout everything, totally saturating the very fibers of all he creates every second, non stop. Intimately, intensely !!!! He was always and STILL IS !!!!! He is ever present!!! How can I be more clear about this. He directs our lives even all of our decisions by providence. Just as He did creation. In Him we live move and have our being. God is everywhere deeply and completely involved in all of His creaion,now,and in the past. Gives me goosebumps!!!!!
The Atheist believes that God isn't necessary for the existence of life. Because they are ATHEIST! Of course, what else would they believe! They can't believe in anything but natural causes and chance, because to them, that's all there is. They can't, and unless God changes their hearts, won't believe there is a god, let alone a creator who is intimately involved with the human species on a very personal level They also CAN'T prove He doesn't exist!
They believe in chance and necessity. They can explain how life came to be with evolution and back it up with science, but what the can't explain is WHY life came to be. THAT is the purpose of the Bible, to help those with eyes and ears to understand the WHYS, not the HOWS.
The Bible is not a science book, science is not it's purpose. You can't use the Bible to prove or disprove science. Just as you can't use science to prove or disprove the existance of God.
Faith is a gift from God, either He gives it to you or He doesn't. If you want it just ask for it, and He will give it to you!
Why don't you Google BB Warfield, or AA Hodge. You may be suprised at what you find. He was commited to the inerrancy of scripture in totallity, and also believed in the scientific findings of His day. To him there was not a conflict between evolution and faith because while the scriptures are infallable man's interpretation of them is not.
The problem I have with Y.E.Cists is because of their literal interpretation of the creation accounts, they have determined that one must choose between science and the scriptures in order to be a bible believing Christian. Which is sad because even with a literal reading of the creation accounts one cannot disprove evolution.
Peace,
Tulipgirl
I think I'm around the middle, in between your two opposite poles of the Christian spectrum.
I have nothing against evolution per se, it's humanism and naturalism that I oppose. But I don't personally feel that evolution has sufficient evidence to be considered proven.
Yet at the same time, evolution remains the only viable process for the transformation of simple life forms to complex life forms. It's remarkably elegant and intuitive... But it lacks supporting evidence that has been more than a century in the missing.
Now, God can snap His fingers and make all life out of literally nothing (as He did the universe at the Big Bang). But I feel that He would use a less sudden method... He used the Big Bang instead of snap-whole-universe-appears, fully formed and in place. I base this conclusion on the ample evidence supporting the Big Bang theory.
So that leaves me with the question: If not evolution, then what other method did God use? I wish to find out, before I finally fall back on finger-snapping.
My dilemma explained more fully here: http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/11/06/creation-how/
Btw, tulipgirl, you seem very well read on the issue of Creation vs Evolution, citing many familiar arguments and concepts. I wouldn't mind reading more of your point of view. I don't suppose you blog?
The thing about the Bing Bang theory is, it still remains as the best fit. And it doesn't conflict with the Bible's teachings. Therefore, it is not a problem to concede that God created the universe through a Big Bang.
However, the theory of evolution seriously lacks scientific evidence. It no longer remains as the best fit. So, why would we want to stick up for a theory that can't even pass the scientific test?
It can be a good thing if evolution is true. Naturalistic scientists, Christian fundamentalists, and atheists will be at peace about the issue.
But where is the evidence?
We don't have a reason to stick up for that theory. It doesn't make our faith sound any more scientifically acceptable.
“Do Christian evolutionists exist?” Wow, It is an interesting topic to concern, but I don’t think we are able to matter it so much. Because, “creation” is the fact that we can never know how the process is.
In my understanding, you use the key word of “chance” in objection the theory of evolution. “Higher determinant would not decide something on a coin toss”, “If God oversaw each step of the evolutionary process, and then evolution has fallen by definition itself. It has become a directed process. That is creationism, not evolution.” you gave your point direct and precise to the fact.
I agree, God will not let “chance” to make and control us. Chance- The unknown and unpredictable element in happenings that seems to have no assignable cause. God have His formula in creating us and purpose every life that recognize Him. Formula- uncontroversial model or approach.
My opinion, theory of evolution is just an effort to understand the model of creation. The word of “chance” could be a word that not enough intelligent to describe God’ wisdom by evolutionist. When they understand the formula of “the unpredictable element”, that is no more “chance” in word.
I don’t know how far the accuracy of evolution in describing the existence of you and me. In fact, I am not really care about it too coz I know my intellect cannot reach to that understanding of the truth. Science is a wonderful asset of knowledge and stimulation for human intellect growth, but if study science without humility, there is no spiritual growth. I don’t see that is a blessing for a scientist to have strong intellectual power but have no faith of the existence of a higher determinant in his life. Coz no one would like to live in “chance”.
Would like to ask you a question, a sentence in abstract from your article:
1.)If an evolutionist says he is a Christian, he is either, not a Christian as he claims to be. May I know what a Christian should claim to?
I'm not going to post a thorough response here, other than to say to go read my own blog on the subject:
My blog entry
Si Maan: To clarify the last statement that you quoted from my blog entry...
If a Christian believes in evolution, he does not really "cease" to be Christian. Or "lose his salvation."
But if a Christian believes in evolution, here's a better way to say it: He is a Christian who is misinformed.
Nobody can be totally perfect in his understanding of things around us. It's not reasonable to say that someone is not fit to be called a Christian just because of a faulty understanding of science and creation.
But what I'm trying to point out is, if a Christian is truly consistent in his belief in a personal, Creator God... Then he can't possibly be comfortable with the idea of evolution. It is not only his faith that would point the other way. Scientific evidence too, would also point the other way.
Si Maan: To clarify the last statement that you quoted from my blog entry...
If a Christian believes in evolution, he does not really "cease" to be Christian. Or "lose his salvation."
But if a Christian believes in evolution, here's a better way to say it: He is a Christian who is misinformed.
Nobody can be totally perfect in his understanding of things around us. It's not reasonable to say that someone is not fit to be called a Christian just because of a faulty understanding of science and creation.
But if a Christian is truly consistent with his belief in evolution, then his faulty reasoning on this particular matter(not his life) is actually similar to that of an atheist. That is the error that I'm trying to point out.
If a Christian is truly consistent in his belief in a personal, Creator God... Then he can't possibly be comfortable with the idea of evolution. It is not only his faith that would point the other way. Scientific evidence too, would also point the other way.
If there indeed is a higher determinant, it must be higher from all forms of creation. The "determinant" cannot be part of what is "being determined." It has to be transcendent. Or else it doesn't make any sense.
The only thing that is transcendent over all creation (matter, space, and time) is God.
If that is the case "the determinant" cannot be part of what is "being determined" (I agree with you) - but how do you explained Christian claim that Christ Jesus is God and the Moslem claim that Christ Jesus is creation.
“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.” Exodus 20:11
“It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”Exodus 31:17
Was Adam 930 years old when he dies or was he millions+930
Question: At which point does the Bible become factual? If evolution is true, you have to throw out the Bible starting with Genesis 1:1, including Adam, Eve, the Garden of Eden and the beginning of sin. This continues into the New Testament where Christ’s sacrifice becomes a meaningless gesture, and any profit we have in the resurrection is negated and our salvation and hope of an afterlife is ‘pie in the sky’. Empty also would be the words of Christ Himself as in Matthew 19:4, (above), and in Matthew 23:35 “And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah………”. In Romans 5:19 Paul writes, “For as by one man's, (Adam), disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one, (Christ), shall many be made righteous.” The New Testament refers to creation 10 times, Adam 7, Abel 4, and Cain 3. There are over 700 references to the Old Testament in the New Testament: The Bible may have been written by imperfect people. BUT… it was authenticated by the perfect one.. Christ Himself
Sir Authur Keith, a famous British evolutionist said, “Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation – which is unthinkable.” How sad is that? No matter what the evidence told him, this man believed in evolution only because he didn’t want God in his life. Evolutionists tell us evolution is a scientific fact. It is not… It is an hypothesis which under scrutiny fails to meet the first requirement of science - observation. Evolution has never been observed in any manner, and no, getting a chihuahua from a wolf is not “goo to you” evolution as evolutionists will tell you. It is variation, both are still dogs, both are “according to their kind”, and it doesn’t matter how much breeding you do you will only ever get a dog from a dog. On the other hand the Bible is, amongst many things, a history book inspired by the only One who was there at the time of creation, God.
In 2000 years not one word or verse of the Bible has ever been proved to be inaccurate. By contrast evolutionists must continue to amend their theory so as to accommodate new findings.
Make no mistake, evolution is a tool designed by satan enabling atheists to deny the existence of God, Not only is it absurd, but by its own definition, unscientific. If you, as a Christian believe the evolution lie you are complicit in satan’s deception and must believe Christ was either barmy or a deceiver of men.
1 Corinthians 1:25 “For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.”
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